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Can you really survive simply by trading your own account?

You lose your job. You really can't find another one. Can you live simply by trading on the back of your redundancy payout?

Maybe, but don't count on it.

"There is no guaranteed monthly income from trading," says Anton Kreil, a former European equities trader at JPMorgan, Lehman and Goldman Sachs-turned CEO at the Institute of Trading and Portfolio Management. "That's what Madoff offered and it turned out to be a fraud."

Nevertheless, some people purport to be doing ok using their own initiative.

Take 26 year old 'Vladimir,' who left a comment on this article claiming that he lost his investment banking job in London, moved to Eastern Europe, cut his cost of living to €500 a month and turned 10k of savings into 142k over two years.

Is Vladimir normal?

Possibly not. Lex Van Dam, an ex-trader at Goldman Sachs and GLG, says most people find it difficult to trade for a living. "A lot of people fail," he says. "Most people make money in finance, not because they're good traders but because they're working for a bank. Trading your own money is not a simple thing - for most people, it's best to stay away."

Geraint Anderson retired from the City aged 35, under the impression that 2.5m would be enough capital to provide him with an income. He says it hasn't worked out that way: "I was hoping to make a 5% real return. It's not impossible, but it's hard work when the markets are so unpredictable. I haven't looked at my portfolio for ages and no doubt I've singularly failed."

If you want to have any chance of making a long term living from trading, you need to resist the urge to lever yourself up too massively. Kreil points out that some brokerages will offer you leverage of up to 10 times on stocks and 100 times on FOREX and that it's in their interest to do so. The brokers charge commission fees on the total value of your trades, not just your collateral.

"If you only lever yourself two to four times, you'll have to lose 25% to 50% to wipe out your collateral," he says. "But in a well-diversified portfolio with 20 positions, half of which are long and half of which are short, it's almost impossible to lose that amount. Loads of people make a living from trading, but they're the ones who haven't leveraged themselves too highly. If you lever yourself 10 times for example, it will only take a 10% loss and your collateral will be wiped out. With 100 times a 1% loss will wipe you out"

William de Lucy who runs the prop firm Amplify Trading says it takes a longish time for people to make a living from trading their own book. "You need to get a feel for your trading strategy before increasing your leverage," he says. De Lucy also claims that non-traders from banks usually need a bit of training before they're competent at trading their own books. Amplify will apparently provide this at a cost of 4.5k for four months. Vladimir didn't seem to do it, but maybe you need to add this to your costs.

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AUTHORSarah Butcher Global Editor
  • Ha
    Harv
    28 October 2017

    My own experience is that successful trading requires not so much risk management but recognition of opportunity followed by immediate, fearless action. Risk is a reflection of position sizing. Management means immediate abandonment of any trade moving in the wrong direction. Fearless means being so preoccupied with the trade that the prospect of loss does not deter you from it. My disasters, when they happened, were always caused by fear dominating the recognition of opportunity, or chagrin dominating the loss of opportunity.
    Position sizing means establishing a range of acceptable trade size in relation to the opportunity presented, capped anywhere from 5% to 20 % of account size, reserving
    the latter for the greatest opportunities, possibly accomplished by several trades sequentially. There are times when keeping a trade alive overnight can court disaster. Next, use derivatives, and leverage the heck out of the trade. Finally, watch daily but trade as described only three to four times a year when the great opportunities occur. Most of your money will be made by doing absolutely nothing, most of the time.

  • Sp
    Speculator
    16 November 2016

    Forget trading. If you have $50k , 50% return in a year which is almost impossible will make you $25k which is not enough to live on. If you buy a property for $250k with a 20% deposit of $50k it will double in value in 7/8 years without doing very little. I have made millions in property over 30 years and I live on the borrowings.ie let the property increase in value , borrow on the higher value and live on borrowings. No tax to pay as it is not an income. Forget trading. Get into the real estate game. Rent the properties. Do a job or some stable business. Borrow when value goes up. Use the borrowed money to pay for living expenses, even to pay mortgage interest, children's school fees etc. Today I am worth more than $5 million after eating into equity of more than $2million for living expenses. I only buy in premium areas and the strategy is only for capital gains and I do not focus on rental income as I pay the difference with more borrowed money. Lot safer than trading as the properties increase in value while you sleep.

  • Fa
    Fatima
    15 August 2016

    Hi,
    I have been reading a lot about trading and I am determinded to start. Would it be a lot if I ask you for some advice and sharing your stategies with me, please?

  • sa
    sanlorenzo
    10 March 2016

    FWIW I began trading in 2007 and "got lucky" until the crash wiped me out in 2008. That made me look long and hard at what happened, and what I thought I was doing. I spent three years writing algos and testing them, just in order to discover how the markets actually work. In short, it took me 7 years to become consistent, i.e. profitable. It also cost me the price of a nice London apartment. In fact it is true to say that I funded my trading education out of my adventures in property. These days I realise that most employed traders have had the benefit of an excellent, on-going education in their discipline. In stark contrast to this, retail traders (those dealing with retail brokers, trading their own cash), seem to get little or none at all, whilst the minority that do try to educate themselves are all the while giving wads of paypal cash to internet "gurus" or "trading champions" who claim to know the "insider secrets" of the "ultimate system" that "creates your own atm" and other such bs. Trading on your own account is just about the hardest way of making a living that I have happened across. That said, like any challenge, the only ones worth meeting head-on are tough. My advice would be this; if you plan on trading your own capital for income, then unless you have enough to set aside for living expenses over 3 to 4 years, forget it. If you have an existing income that allows you to trade your capital for growth, then you have a chance. You will need to cost in 3 years of solid/professional education, at which you spend at least 4 to 5 hours / day studying and 2 hours practicing what you are learning. After the first 3 months you should be paper trading and after the first 9 to 12 months you should be paper trading profitably. Consistency in your methods (and hence profitability) will take longer. Putting on a trade and staring at a screen is not trading. Trading is 70% analysis 20% forecasting and 9% planning and 1% managing your trades and portfolio. In choosing your sources of education, look for 1) a complete absence of price/time based indicators with names like overbought, stochastic, rsi etc.. 2) look for courses that teach trading without charts (yes, with NO charts) - once you get profitable just trading with the time & sales and market depth numbers, then you can look at how to use charts properly. 3) look for courses that teach how to "read the tape", courses on price action with volume analyses. 4) trade futures and options, not spot markets as they effectively blindfold you from real market data, and you need that more than ever when you are starting out. Last but not least, it's going to be a better journey if you are lucky enough to have a partner who will support you emotionally and quite possibly in every other way for 4 years or so. If you are single, then you really need to be aware that if you get into this, you will likely have no life outside of trading for some years. If you still want to trade your own a/c after reading this, then I wish you the very best of luck with your journey - either way it will not be boring!

  • Gu
    Guy Thomas,
    28 November 2011

    All the people profiled in my book have done it. Several are ex-bankers - from prop trading, debt origination, shipping finance etc.

    "Free Capital" by Guy Thomas

    Amazon blurb:: "Based on a series of interviews, it outlines the investing strategies, wisdom and lifestyles of 12 highly successful private investors. Each of them has accumulated 1m or more - in most cases considerably more - mainly from stock market investment. Six are 'ISA millionaires' who have 1m or more in a tax-free ISA, a result which is arithmetically impossible without exceptional investment returns."

    http://amzn.to/gDGrFE

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